This is one of the few places where that doesnt happen on a regular basis! And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. They are part of what it means to be human. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. Declarations of faith. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. Would you want to answer that one? People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. Alexander Maclaren 15. How wonderful to remember those days! There is too much work to be done. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). (LogOut/ By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. Baptist commentaries are the work of scholars and pastors who have served and ministered within the Baptist branch of the Christian faith. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Nicholas what a great link. 9. First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. from what Ive seen here, youve always been a gentleman and tolerant of others who do not believe as you do. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. Dark times. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. @ Daisy: Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? Chezaro 6 yr. ago. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. I know of Hortons book and I shall read that after I finish Olson. The word "Gospel" which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. And many if not most Protestant mainline denominations accept the idea of penal substitionary atonement, though I am aware not everyone accepts this belief. We were just grateful to be around otherChristians. @ Daisy: @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. I. Howard Marshall 28. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? Learn as I go, mistakes & big mess. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. Gordon Fee 30. . 1550-1616), who was not. There are some who would consider me non charitable. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? But please consider what it sounds like to those of us who disagree. Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. Hes describing man, not God. The way total depravity was explained to me (via a G. I. Williamson commentary on one of the Westminster Catechisms, cant remember if it was longer or shorter) was with the example of a glass of water. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. I recently engaged the discussion on Denny Burks website regarding the PC(USA) rejecting the song In Christ Alone because of the line The wrath of God was satisfied. Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? I need it. But I do not understand why discussions of sovereignty do not always point to love, to the simple fact that while we do not have enough information yet, on this side of life, we can be confident that love and fairness/justice is and always will be the answer and we will someday understand how it looks, And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. This way of thinking goes against what Calvin said about freewill, the Westminster Confession of Faith says about freewill, and what every Calvinist Ive ever met says about freewill. Ah, I didnt catch that. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. God can do that. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. How dare he write such a long work! ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. Im sure no one here would like someone to denounce their beliefs by stating them in a way that they dont accept. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: Green 27. (Mark 12:28-34, ESV). I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. 1) That article. Our sinful human nature craves it. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . I do not know. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! He sets a great example and I appreciate his ability to charitable in discussing beliefs that others dont believe or accept. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. I know the WCF does not say it. Maybe Im wrong on that. I wont go into all of them. But the rest of the bad stuff? If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. When I correct someone, mostly my goal is to show them that the ones who taught them this horrible doctrine are the outsiders with fringe beliefs, not them. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. So far, we both agree. This is what some people have heard their entire life. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? Change). Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. But something has changed in the last number of years. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. It means you are thinking for yourself and we encourage you to continue to be the loyal opposition. Who did he think he was? I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. Im aware of his molecule statement. That was pretty much the last straw for me. . These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. They certainly didnt bring freedom in Christ. I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. I realize that, even with these qualifications, there are those who find such a God abhorrent, and that there are some who will be upset by the notion of such a God, probably because of some terrible thing they went through. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. Thanks for taking my comment in the way I intended. The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? By no means is this true, and Im willing to bet it never really has been. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. is far removed from anything I, or any other Calvinist I know, believes. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. Breathes words of consolation deep inside you. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. My point was this idea that God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did. My jaw dropped open when I read the first paragraph of your post. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. Cheers you on. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. Due to the successful ministries of dynamic authors, preachers and speakers such as Louie Giglio, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Kevin DeYoung and Josh Harris, Calvinist/Reformed theology is ranked, according to Time magazine, 3rd on the list of Top 10 Ideas that are Changing the World Right Now . Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Written by Daniel Isaiah Joseph in Charts. Quotes about calvinism Like one Cal would say, Cals do not believe Z, stop saying Cals believe in Z, but then five posts later, another Cal would sit there in the same thread and defend Z, say Cals were right and proper to believe in Z, and Z has lots of Scriptural support. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. 1. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. Holds you and strokes the back of your head. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. Paul admonished the church in Corinth for following men, when they were saying, "I follow Paul" or, "I . LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. Just a few thoughts for you. whats wrong with mess anyway? Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. The rule about not eating the fruit was just as much an opportunity for Adam/Eve to choose good as it was to choose evil. You seem to know the internal workings of God which amazes me. @ Steve D: To breath it. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 Those wishes are not uncommon. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. The volumes below reflect Baptist beliefs and convictions, yet non-Baptists read many of these well-reviewed volumes as well. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right. Life is full of uncertainties, and we will never be able to rid our lives of uncertainties, of doubts, of questions. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. Reformed Theology, Rooted in the Bible. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted?
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